tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post116353684938745865..comments2023-10-26T03:53:34.082-07:00Comments on Rose Madrid Swetman: Open Letter to Mark DriscollRose Madrid Swetmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05546715058262370982noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-65896418889601617532011-06-16T09:39:40.091-07:002011-06-16T09:39:40.091-07:00Rose-
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I st...Rose-<br />Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I stand strongly behind Mark and feel that he is one of the few pastors out there actually calling men to be men and women to be women in the manner that God intended. Unfortunately, our current society is plagued by self-serving attitudes and is not always prepared to hear the truth that Mark speaks. I thank God for giving us a man like Mark. <br />-LesLes Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11100570068570871830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-8818334190581379692011-03-21T14:49:47.830-07:002011-03-21T14:49:47.830-07:00Ladies - especially ladies...you can avoid all thi...Ladies - especially ladies...you can avoid all this by becoming an atheist. We lead much happier, fuller and kinder lives than any of the religious. Religion is not for women. If wifely submission, servitude and slavery was a gods plan then women would only have an IQ of 80 and only yearn for servitude. Not so though. Let it go. There is no god. You'll be much happier with out "him".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-47835754843594155742010-09-02T23:57:03.429-07:002010-09-02T23:57:03.429-07:00Thanks for writing this. I go to a Vineyard churc...Thanks for writing this. I go to a Vineyard church - makes me proud to be a part of the Vineyard to read what you wrote. I am continually taken aback by how unChristlike Driscoll's words are. He does not represent the humble, loving Jesus that the Bible tells us about. Did you ever get a response from him? I am guessing that you didn't, but I am curious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-11128264020860343122009-11-07T12:05:55.356-08:002009-11-07T12:05:55.356-08:00Amber and Cliff,
If you have been a part of the Ma...Amber and Cliff,<br />If you have been a part of the Mars Hill church body then you know how Driscoll handles people who wish to question him or express concern about his teachings. He will not grant them an audience and then often will shame them, sometimes from the pulpit. And fear for what he is capable of is why I'm making this anonymous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-75913519333079561672009-11-07T11:58:19.315-08:002009-11-07T11:58:19.315-08:00Have you seen this?
http://www.twitter.com/fakedri...Have you seen this?<br />http://www.twitter.com/fakedriscollAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-79453218368664272862009-06-29T21:15:26.587-07:002009-06-29T21:15:26.587-07:00Christ was in submission to the father, thus the f...Christ <i>was</i> in submission to the father, thus the father was over Christ. How many times did Christ say, "I only do what the Father tells me to do", or "I say only what the father tells me to say"? Yes He was fully God, but He was also fully submissive to God, who is above Him in rank. <br /><br />Also, Paul says, "22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24).<br /><br />Seems obvious that the hierarchy of Christ's relationship to us then, is not also supposed to be shown through Marriage, why? Because marriage is Gospel, it is to teach the world how Christ relates to his people - We submit to the Love & Authority of Christ, and likewise, Wives are to submit to the Love and Authority of their husbands, Eph. 5:25.<br /><br />Its about the Gospel, not "Women can do anything men can do cause we're equal." Go ahead, waste your life proving you can do anything a man can do - but its not the best Christ as for you. Christ would want you to know the Love of the Father through submission to the Lord and ultimately your Husband - to learn the power of a gentle and quiet spirit that only comes through powerful faith to empower your submission to your husband when everything inside of you wants to rage, or assert your will above his - just as our faith is to help us submit to Christ in the same way.Weshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04369782399110997443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-65994571653672439232009-06-28T23:42:42.214-07:002009-06-28T23:42:42.214-07:00Thank you, Rose, for posting this. Public teachin...Thank you, Rose, for posting this. Public teaching and rhetoric needs to be tested by those of us believers who seek truth.<br /><br />Much has been written since Mr. Driscoll's "Ted Haggard/wife" comments, and it seems his shock jock approach has gotten him censored - <br /><br />http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=30700<br /><br />There are serious authoritarian problems with his teachings, where he and others eternally subordinate the Son Jesus to the Father God in the Trinity, bringing in many hierarchical teachings into body life of the Church and in marriage and in general male/female relationships. <br /><br />Will his defenders defend his abusive and insensitive manipulation in his teachings in the link I provided? The incredible sensitive nature of that topic should have been left to couples counseling, not a public pulpit, and especially the way HE handled it. The marriage bed is undefiled -- that is, up until this particular sermon of his. This teaching was given this month, June '09. <br /><br />The Matthew 18 context is one of personal offense against a brother or sister. This is public teaching and ought to be publicly confronted, since it was not done in a box and many people are taking in teaching that is spiritually manipulative and even biblically debatable.<br /><br />It's interesting the kind of comments here judging your motives. This is indicative of spiritually abusive tactics, and it tends to happen with people who feel passionate about a particular leader. Jeff VanVonderen's book on spiritual abuse is very helpful.Kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181438211658110880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-24630817710609037032009-06-25T15:19:59.901-07:002009-06-25T15:19:59.901-07:00Even if we are in the future kingdom to come, and ...Even if we are in the future kingdom to come, and we are all 'reigning with Christ' - that does not mean that while we are still in the kingdom on earth that there are not gender roles on earth we are to live out. If the future kingdom is here, and we are all reigning with Christ, then it got here and we started reigning right after Christ raised from the dead. <br /><br />Which means, that the Apostle Paul also was reigning with Christ in this new kingdom when he wrote in 1 Timothy 2, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."<br /><br />While many have perverted this text to teach that it somehow is no longer relevant, it is a clear command from scripture for the gender roles in which God insists to be so. He does not do this because He hates women, or because He values them less, for we are all heirs of Grace together - but it, just like all his laws and commandments, is because of His great love for us.<br /><br />I pray that you will be free of your bondage to this most unfortunate untruth to which you have falsely been taught, and that Christ will bless you tremendously in your submission to the truth of who Christ has made and called us to be as men and women.<br /><br />God bless you friend.Weshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04369782399110997443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-74660736839663202752009-03-06T14:43:00.000-08:002009-03-06T14:43:00.000-08:00Rose my only hope is that you would have gone and ...Rose my only hope is that you would have gone and shown him "his faults" before bringing them before the church. That is what scripture ask of us.holdridgehomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02644490454461204403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-46667432219261541042009-03-06T14:42:00.000-08:002009-03-06T14:42:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.holdridgehomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02644490454461204403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-57579491247361167782009-01-22T23:57:00.000-08:002009-01-22T23:57:00.000-08:00This is fantastic.This is fantastic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-83389498010622918122009-01-03T08:00:00.000-08:002009-01-03T08:00:00.000-08:00Rose,I've read this letter twice now. Once over a ...Rose,<BR/>I've read this letter twice now. Once over a year ago, and again today.<BR/><BR/>The one thing that strikes me is how unclear you are regarding the standard flow of a blog.<BR/><BR/>The concept of an open, interactive discussion is what makes this medium so wonderful and new.<BR/><BR/>Quite a few people, on both sides of the issues, have asked for interaction and response from you. Nothing. You have said nothing. You may have contacted them personally, that is great. However, this is nothing more than your own soapbox, with others yelling back at you, if you don't interact and respond.<BR/><BR/>Oh, it's hard work, but that's the point of a blog.<BR/><BR/>Don't just shoot from the hip, and then walk away! Get back here, and respond to some of the comments above. Otherwise, you make yourself to be not worth even listening to, let alone discussing with.Trevor Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09793111067102184964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-47385068679888302922007-11-26T12:55:00.000-08:002007-11-26T12:55:00.000-08:00Almost one year later, and there's controversy bre...Almost one year later, and there's controversy brewing again.<BR/><BR/><B>KING 5 News:</B> Controversy Brewing at Seattle's Mars Hill Church<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://blogs.king5.com/citizenrain/2007/11/controversy_brewing_at_seattle.html" REL="nofollow"><B>http://blogs.king5.com/citizenrain/2007/11/controversy_brewing_at_seattle.html</B></A><BR/>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-38064541814576261472007-11-20T13:25:00.000-08:002007-11-20T13:25:00.000-08:00I find Rose Swetman's argument very weak because o...I find Rose Swetman's argument very weak because of the lack of scriptural reference. Like most women in this day and age, she comes to a conclusion without any evidence. Call me a woman hater if you like but the feminist mindset sounds a bit demonic, chauvinistic and out of order with God's Holy Word. <BR/><BR/>Swetman's leadership easily fits what the apostle Paul warned about ... saying false teachers can often be identified by their opposition or indifference to the essential truths of the gospel. <BR/>"For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." -2nd Timothy 3:6-8<BR/><BR/>If Paul said it, I believe it for God's Word does not lie. For those of you who think this scripture is taken out of context, you're only fooling yourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-20948717161394995782007-10-13T04:59:00.000-07:002007-10-13T04:59:00.000-07:00I know this is sort of old.. But I can't believe t...I know this is sort of old.. But I can't believe the amount of fuzzy logic involved in this criticism. You say approximately one complete thought in about three or four over-worded sentences. You don't use precise scripture to back up your claims. So what if women should only be allowed to teach women and children. The fact that you consider this a lower position, is an insult to women and children.<BR/>What if male pastors took it as an insult that they do not get the position of pastor over women groups? Why doesn't this ever happen? <BR/>So Jesus set everyone free from the requirements and advice laid out clearly in the Bible? Are you serious?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-84394941679883393522007-10-12T06:58:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:58:00.000-07:00Rose,It's been awhile since this thread has been a...Rose,<BR/>It's been awhile since this thread has been active, but I thought that if you are still working out responses you'd enjoy a recent Open Letter I crafted. This one in reaction to a video I saw and the more recent Christianity Today Article. See www.jonalynfincher.com<BR/>I appreciate your response. Thank you for noting the harm Mr. Driscoll's labels are causing.<BR/>Grace and hope,<BR/>JonalynJonalyn Fincherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11945029272562666706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-85343290385105400482007-09-25T09:10:00.000-07:002007-09-25T09:10:00.000-07:00Thanks to Rose Swetman for opening my eyes. Before...Thanks to Rose Swetman for opening my eyes. Before reading her enlightening letter to Mark Driscoll, I was bound to take the Bible far too literally. Now, however, I realize that Paul and Peter and the rest of that motley crew that wrote the New Testament were really just victims of the ideology of a patriarchal society. And they only thought they were speaking and writing down God's words. I'm sure thankful that the apostle Rose has set me straight. <BR/><BR/>Apparently, Paul and Peter did not understand all the ramifications of the atonement. But now in these last days, God has revealed it to us through his daughter Rose. If they had understood it, they would never have written things about women being submissive to the authority of men (e.g., I Corinthians 11:3-10; Ephesians 5:22-33; Colossians 3:18; 1 Timothy 2:11-15; Titus 2:3-5; 1 Peter 3:1-7; etc.). And as strongly and clearly and repeatedly as they state this idea of women being in submission to men, they must have been really deceived. <BR/><BR/>But now it has become clear to me that the revelation given in Galatians 3:28 trumps all of these other passages of Scripture. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if we really need all of that other stuff in the New Testament. It's probably just a waste of time reading it. We can keep the passages about the atonement and then just figure out how to apply it ourselves. We can surely apply it better than the New Testament writers. After all, we're not blinded by cultural ideologies like they were. <BR/><BR/>And even in choosing passages about the atonement, we need to be careful. For instance, Philippians 2:5-11 teaches that Jesus was equal with God yet submitted to him. And thanks to Rose, we know that it is not right for someone to submit to someone else who is their equal. In fact, now that I think about it, I've been submitting to my bosses at work and the lawmakers of this state and this country for far too long. And I don't think that I am the least bit inferior to them. And submitting to their authority is like admitting that they are better than me. Wow! I really think I'm getting the hang of this. This whole thing is really setting me free. Thanks for such transformational teaching, Rose. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure that some reading this will comment that the tone of my sarcasm bothers them. It bothers me, too--in much the same way that it bothers me when Paul says he wishes the circumcision group would just go the whole way and emasculate themselves (Galatians 5:12). I am yelling at the top of my lungs because it is time to stop playing games with the teaching of Scripture. It's time to stop pretending that it is all very civil or a matter for academic debate or that everyone has a right to his or her opinion or blah, blah, blah. There are times when that is true. It is not true when the teaching of Scripture is so very clear--as it is on this subject. <BR/><BR/>This issue is not about justice. It is about righteousness. It's not so much about women submitting to men as it is about everyone submitting to God.<BR/><BR/>In the passages about women submitting to men that are cited in the second paragraph above there are some very clear warnings. More than that: All Scripture is God breathed. It comes from the very mouth of God. And God does not stutter. Too deny this basic teaching is to call the writers of almost every book in the Bible a liar, because it is taught in very clear terms throughout. This is not fundamentalist teaching. This is the teaching of the Bible. If you do not accept the Bible's teaching just be honest and say so. People who label Driscoll as a fundamentalist simply do not want to submit to God. They want to pick and choose what they will accept from the Bible. In other words, they are the final authority. They have made themselves the gods of their own lives. How very postmodern of them.<BR/><BR/>Rose and associates claim that Mark Driscoll is vulgar. I have only very limited experience with Mark's teaching and lifestyle, so I am in no position to judge that. But it is hypocritical for Rose to comment on his vulgarity when she writes such vulgar stuff. To adopt the ideology of the world by finding one or two verses that can be made to appear to agree with it (but at the same time denying the clear teaching of several other passages of Scripture in order to do so), is nothing less than vulgar (common). To deny the authority of Scripture is to deny the authority of Christ himself. And to deny Christ's authority while claiming that he is Lord is nothing less than taking his name in vain.<BR/><BR/>It's time for repentance to begin within the Church. If we will not repent and submit to God's Word, how can we expect a lost world to do so?<BR/><BR/>Let God be true and every man (and woman) a liar. To Christ alone be all glory and honor and power and authority. <BR/><BR/>Brad CooperBrad Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12815725289958403154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-91020092118259406392007-09-10T17:20:00.000-07:002007-09-10T17:20:00.000-07:00Rose, there is a reason Mars Hill Church is the bi...Rose, there is a reason Mars Hill Church is the biggest in your state, mark is offensive about people who deserve to be offended, not about unbelievers, but about people who claim to be christians and refuse to act like real men, who have sex with other men, we need my more Mark Driscolls in the church and less people like yourself, actinglike stray disgruntled ducks towards God's appointed leaders for the generation. quaking franticly about "Hurtfull rhetoric" I mean come on, really? This anti mars hill coalition you are forming is like trying to ice skate up hill. As far as i can see he hasn't even dignified this obsurd monologue with a response. I'm sorry about my rant but its this sickeningly overpowering pussyfooting about issues that stop men comming to church. Being a peace maker sometimes means fighting a war firstAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-84739449924816709622007-08-27T06:49:00.000-07:002007-08-27T06:49:00.000-07:00Words cannot express how hurtful this type of publ...Words cannot express how hurtful this type of public discourse is. You are free to disagree with Brother Mark, after the proper measures have been taken. As a Pastor, you hold a sacred trust to protect the body against the influence of Satan to publicly divide the Body of Christ. <BR/><BR/>I have only one question. Are you in accord with the following scripture?<BR/>Matthew 18:15, <BR/><BR/>15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.<BR/><BR/>Your blog is unclear if you have attempted to contact Mark directly regarding his comments. In the future, I would encourage you to do so. Until then, I hold all of your comments in contempt of scripture.<BR/><BR/>God Bless you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-42217827896093758292007-08-07T21:32:00.000-07:002007-08-07T21:32:00.000-07:00glad to hear you got your peeps patting you on the...glad to hear you got your peeps patting you on the back.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-21780085879851469132007-07-14T08:56:00.000-07:002007-07-14T08:56:00.000-07:00I'm sure this was a good post, but I only got to t...I'm sure this was a good post, but I only got to the part that mentioned N.T. Wright. So you are on the same page with this guy? If so, then we can see your comments flow from the heresy you embrace, not from our Christ.<BR/><BR/>For the Supremacy of Christ in all things, -- bRADAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-2404924733548693452007-05-23T07:04:00.000-07:002007-05-23T07:04:00.000-07:00Rose...the bunny rabbit part actually was funny......Rose...<BR/>the bunny rabbit part actually was funny...<BR/>you should strive to be more peaceful and tolerant about other people's interpretations of the bible.<BR/>Your brother in Christ,<BR/>TreyTreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07411219406513858014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-15568619063055537962007-05-21T04:40:00.000-07:002007-05-21T04:40:00.000-07:00Rose,Thanks for the hummble and gentle spirit in w...Rose,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the hummble and gentle spirit in which you've written this letter. To me an example of what Jesus had in mind when he spoke on Kingdom values 'Blessed are the peacemakers'<BR/><BR/>AnriAnrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152914384977722777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-88449668733160981762007-04-08T05:59:00.001-07:002007-04-08T05:59:00.001-07:00Coming from London and being miles away from this ...Coming from London and being miles away from this debate even i can see that this is just jealousy<BR/><BR/>I remember listening to Rick Warren says how he only limits his time with talkin to influencers and also i remember reading in the Bible how God told Habukuk in the Bible to give the vision to the RUNNERS not the sitters and the pretenders or the moaners...<BR/><BR/>my point being why would a guy who pastors and influences tens of thousands waste time answering someone who's mind is already made up, who dosent influence very many people?<BR/><BR/>whether he's right or wrong i think u shuld move on...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7973346.post-65499831185677245452007-04-08T05:59:00.000-07:002007-04-08T05:59:00.000-07:00Coming from London and being miles away from this ...Coming from London and being miles away from this debate even i can see that this is just jealousy<BR/><BR/>I remember listening to Rick Warren says how he only limits his time with talkin to influencers and also i remember reading in the Bible how God told Habukuk in the Bible to give the vision to the RUNNERS not the sitters and the pretenders or the moaners...<BR/><BR/>my point being why would a guy who pastors and influences tens of thousands waste time answering someone who's mind is already made up, who dosent influence very many people?<BR/><BR/>whether he's right or wrong i think u shuld move on...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com